[This article originally appeared in the 2023 Fall lssue of Two More Chains.]
“Over the last 30 years, while it’s sometimes been difficult to keep the program going, the constant has been the leadership support at the local, regional, and national level as well as the personnel on the ground to host the meetings weekly and the academies annually.”
Oscar Vargas
Oscar Vargas enrolled in the Angeles National Forest Wildland Fire Explorer Program in 1998 when he was 18 years old. He went from being an Explorer to an Explorer Advisor and then a Post Manager. Today, besides working his way up to Division Chief on the Angeles National Forest, Oscar’s key collateral duty is serving as the Explorer Program Manager for the Angeles.
As you’ll see in this informative and enlightening conversation with Kelly Woods, Director of the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center, besides discussing the Explorer Program’s unique history and intent, Oscar also explains how and why—despite many challenges—this program continues to represent such a successful training and career development path for young men and women today.
Kelly: Hi, Oscar. Many of our questions for you are focused on the Angeles National Forest Wildland Fire Explorer Program. But could we start with the basics of who you are and where you work.
Oscar: I’m a Division Chief or a District Fire Management Officer. I work on the Angeles National Forest in Los Angeles.
Kelly: Awesome. Have you been on the Angeles your whole career?
Oscar: Yes.
Kelly: That’s very cool. That’s not super typical. Seems like lots of folks bounce around a bit.
Oscar: Yes. I feel lucky to have been able to stay on the Angeles.
Kelly: And you started your career as part of the Explorer Program, right?
Oscar: Yes.
Kelly: Could you tell me about the Explorer Program?
Oscar: It’s a fire service training program for young men and women. “Exploring” opportunities have been around since the 1970s across the country, in all kinds of work fields, government agencies, private industry, and academia. It’s not specific to the fire service.
The program focuses on young men and women ages 14 to 21 in a specific career field. These young men and women join an Explorer Program to explore that career field. The various sponsoring agencies manage them differently. The U.S. Forest Service has had explorers for over 30 years now. The purpose is to expose young men and women to wildland firefighting careers so that they can make a decision on whether or not it’s a good career path for them.
A lot of these young people end up realizing that wildland firefighting careers is not for them. But, even so, they gain exposure to other things and can focus on what is a good fit for them. For others, like me, who come up through the Explorer Program—we realized that wildland fire is for us. It is great to see those opportunities at an early age.
By the time that these young men and women get exposed to wildland fire through the Explorer Program, then apply for a wildland fire position and get hired, they’re coming into the workforce with an advanced level of awareness of what to expect and what the service is about. Therefore, they don’t have that shocking experience that a lot of new people have when they realize that you’re going to be outside in the elements. That you’re going to be hungry, tired, and hot/cold in the middle of nowhere, getting your butt kicked, and being away from home.
These are things that our Explorers are prepared for. I think that’s what makes this program successful compared to someone who may not have this exposure, this learning, before they apply and get hired.
Kelly: So how old were you when you became an Explorer?
Oscar: I was 18 when I started.
Kelly: How did you hear about it?
Oscar: I was in college taking a fire course. Each student had to present on fire topic subjects. One of the students in the class was a seasonal firefighter on a hotshot crew. He presented on wildland firefighting and hotshots. For the rest of us who didn’t really know any specifics about wildland firefighting, it was super intriguing and interesting. At the end of his presentation, he talked about the local opportunities for joining the Forest Service. He told us about the Explorer Program that was targeting young people interested in wildland fire service careers.
Next, I and a few other students from that class went to the Angeles National Forest fire station where the Explorer Program was based. Three of us were hired, joined the Explorers, and pursued careers with the Forest Service.
Kelly: Is it correct that with the Explorer Program you do four weekends of intense training and then lots of other training and opportunities over a given period of time?
Oscar: Yes. We now have three Explorer Posts across the Angeles National Forest. For a long time we only had one. But because we were attracting so many young men and women around the LA area, we had to expand. We had kids driving from all over the place. We had kids coming in from as far away as San Diego to LA every week—a 120-mile three-hour drive—to be part of the Explorer meetings and then the academy. We therefore expanded to include more folks and spread the posts out geographically.
Each post meets once a week year-round. And there’s an annual Fire Academy that brings together all Forest Service Explorers and Explorers from other departments that’s held over the course of four weekends. The Explorers show up on a Friday and they don’t go home until Sunday. The whole time, they’re doing live fire exercises, classroom educational training, and field/skills building—including occasionally supporting prescribed fires.
Kelly: Nice. And this is the Angeles National Forest in a partnership with Boy Scouts of America and Learning for Life Exploring, correct?
Oscar: Yes.
Kelly: I’m familiar with the Boy Scouts. Could you tell me about the Learning for Life Exploring?
Oscar: An Explorer Program is a combination of an employer, which is a government agency or private entity agency, with the Boy Scouts of America. The Boy Scouts of America has a subdivision called Learning for Life. And that’s what focuses on educational and career opportunities for young men and women. The Forest Service, in conjunction with Learning for Life Exploring, together charter, register, and host an Explorer Program.
Being an Explorer allows participants to cross-train, work with other departments that have Explorers across the entire country for jamborees, gatherings, fire academies, drills, training seminars, webinars, things like that. This experience introduces these young people to interagency and interdepartmental competitions and learning. A lot of times we’ll do drills with other departments, including police departments. Or other industries will have some kind of a training drill or gatherings, Explorer Academies and occasional musters.
Kelly: Cool. So, you came into the Explorer Program, you graduated, and then took a job on the Angeles.
Oscar: Yes. My first year was 1998. I was an Explorer, went to the Explorer Academy, and then became an AD (Administratively Determined) firefighter that year, and was then a seasonal for three years. I was going back and forth to college as a seasonal, then got a permanent position. So now it’s around 24 or 25 years later. I’ve been a hotshot, a heli-shot, worked on all kinds of engines and water tenders, covered as patrols on occasion, been an interagency hotshot (IHC) Superintendent, Engine Captain, IHC Captain, Battalion Chief, Forest Fire Planner, Program Specialist with the Washington Office Fire and Aviation Management program, as well being assigned to a few other details. Now, I’m a District FMO/Division Chief.
Kelly: Nice. So you’re a definite success of the program.
Oscar: Yeah, there’s a handful of us out there that started with the Explorer Program who are now also higher-level chiefs. Even now as I help with Fire Hire, a lot of the people we’re hiring for permanent positions are coming out of our Explorer Programs, from all three of our posts on the Angeles. So the program is still working.
Kelly: I had some exposure to a couple of your Explorers at the U.S. Forest Service Roundtable session last year. I was really impressed with them. It sounds like you already knew you wanted a fire career before you found the Explorer program.
Oscar: I knew I wanted to work in fire. I just didn’t know it was wildland firefighting because I didn’t know about it. I grew up in LA. So I was used to the red trucks, the urban fire departments, and that was what I wanted to do. But once I got exposed to wildland firefighting, that was more my style of who I am—being outdoors, physically fit, motivated to travel and do what we do.
Kelly: What’s your current role with the Explorer Program?
Oscar: That’s a good question. Originally, I went from being an Explorer to an Explorer Advisor, which is an assistant. Then I was a Post Manager, what we call a Lead Advisor. I was running an Explorer Post for about 15 years. Then I was promoted up. So now I’ve grown into a position where it’s more of a collateral duty Explorer Program Manager for our program. In this role I support all three of our posts. They report to me and I report to our Fire Chief for span of control and accountability and planning. I am the Explorer Program Manager for the Angeles National Forest.
Kelly: It really sounds like when you talk about this and some of the reading and research I did, one of the biggest elements that has made this program a success certainly is the dedication from folks like you, but also the dedication from leadership on the Angeles.
Oscar: Yes, absolutely. Since the program’s inception, support from leadership has been huge. The idea originally came from the Forest fire leadership. A local department lost their Explorer Program so kids came to our Forest’s fire chiefs and said, “We’re looking for a post.” Our chiefs at that time said, “Yes, we want an Explorer Post. We’ll host it.” That was the beginning and they’ve supported it ever since.
That’s what makes it work. Over the last 30 years, while it’s sometimes been difficult to keep the program going, the constant has been the leadership support at the local, regional, and national level as well as the personnel on the ground to host the meetings weekly and the academies annually.
Kelly: That’s very cool. And when you have an academy, how many slots does it have?
Oscar: We try to keep it at 40. That’s the target. But we get so many applicants that some years we flex it and bump it up to 50. I think the most we’ve had was 60. We soon realized that was way too many young men and women to keep an eye on and train. It was very difficult regarding span of control. Therefore, 40 to 50 is the sweet spot.
Kelly: Wow. That’s 120 to 150 new recruits annually. That’s unbelievable numbers.
Oscar: Yeah, absolutely. And, generally, every year we have many more applicants than we have slots available. So we have to, unfortunately, roll some of the young men and women over to the next year’s academy if they’re still Explorers.
Kelly: And it’s really collaborative with partners, right?
Oscar: Absolutely. There are two components to the Explorer Program. There’s the weekly year-round meetings and that’s all Forest Service. Then there’s the annual Explorer Academy. This annual academy brings in an Interagency Cadre from fire agencies from all the local surrounding counties—Los Angeles County, Ventura County, Santa Barbara County, Kern County, and Orange County—to help us host it. They help to form an interagency training cadre. That’s part of what keeps everything going. It’s not just Forest Service; it’s like real cadres in the field. We’re all interagency. Otherwise, it’s hard to deliver the academies.
Kelly: They must reap some benefits from it, too. Get some candidates to their programs.
Oscar: Yeah, absolutely. They generally have Explorers from their departments in the academy. Their interest is to encourage their Explorers to see how teamwork works between departments at the academies. And they are also taking their Explorers back after they graduate from the academy and use them to train new Explorers. And then they’re hiring their Explorers with wildland experience into positions in their department. It’s like everywhere else in the world. Every firefighter in California can be a wildland firefighter, no matter what department you work for, because you’re crossing boundaries and fighting brush fires all the time.
And a lot of those partner municipal departments encourage their Explorers to work for wildland fire agencies. So quite often we hire Explorers from these fire departments with municipal backgrounds into all the wildland federal agencies, not just the U.S. Forest Service.
Kelly: That’s very cool.
Oscar: Yeah, they’re going all over the country—wherever the jobs are.
Kelly: How would you say the program has evolved over 30 years? Obviously, you’ve added new posts. Is the current program similar to the program that you completed—or has it changed?
Oscar: It’s fundamentally similar. It’s still weekly meetings. It’s still the same type of program. The framework really hasn’t changed. What has changed is the interest that young men and women have to become wildland firefighters. It definitely isn’t as strong as it was a decade ago. I think a lot of that has to do with the way the young men and women are growing up today.
They’re exposed to so many more opportunities. Some may not even know about the Forest Service. Or if they do, this option may not be of interest to them. Ten or 15 years ago, we’d have waiting lists of up to 40 Explorers at each post. That was the main reason why we expanded to the other posts, there were so many kids applying. But over the last 10 years, we’ve seen a lot less interest in wildland firefighting. As you know, this seems to be happening everywhere, not just with us.
Talking to all my counterparts from other departments, they’re seeing the same thing. The interest in governmental type of work hasn’t been as strong. So, it’s been a bit of a challenge to attract and retain Explorers. Just like the bigger world within wildland firefighting, it’s challenging to attract and retain permanent firefighters. We’re seeing the same thing with the younger ages of the Explorer Program. We’ve had to adapt how we recruit, how we train, how much classroom time we spend versus skills development time. We’re trying to adapt our teaching models to less classroom lecture and more hands-on; get to the point; get them outside and show them what it’s really about type of environment.
Kelly: But it sounds like you still have decent enough interest to fill your seats?
Oscar: Yes. COVID—like with the rest of the world—made it very difficult, especially at the pandemic’s peak. Our number of participants was significantly down for the obvious reasons. We weren’t able to meet in person. We’ve bounced back from that. We kept the long-game vision of: “Okay, even if we have just one or two Explorers, that’s better than no Explorers. We’re not going to give this up.”
Because if we give up, that one Explorer who could be the next Fire Chief or a future Fire Director doesn’t have their career opportunity. That’s why, even with those declining numbers, we realized it was important to keep the program going. And now we’re seeing the interest in our program bounce back. Our participant numbers are at a much better level.
Kelly: That’s great. What would you say are the biggest impacts that the Explorer Program has had on the Angeles National Forest?
Oscar: I think our biggest impact is the fact that just about every module has or had an employee that was once an Explorer. As we look at Fire Hire now, and Fire Hire from the recent past, a lot of the individuals we’re promoting to supervisor level, superintendent level—those high levels—were once Explorers. That’s why the Forest continues to spend a lot of effort and focus on the Explorer Program. We’re seeing the benefits locally year after year.
And even across the region and across the country, a lot of Explorers have moved on to other national forests/agencies—both throughout as well as outside California. Some of these young men and women have realized that the promotion opportunity is greater as they move around the country. So they’re out and about in the rest of the world in the fire service.
Kelly: You were recently on a detail where you were working to establish Explorer Programs elsewhere, right? Could you talk about that?
Oscar: Yes. I worked with the U.S. Forest Service Washington Office Workforce Development and Education program to expand the Explorer Program across the country. We connected with the Boy Scouts of America National Office and their Learning for Life National Office to start this nationwide effort to expand the program. We presented to all of the Forest Service Regions across the country as well as some of the Department of the Interior programs about what an Explorer Program has to offer.
It’s not creating something new. It’s just bringing the awareness to the rest of the country that we have a program that works. There are a few Forests across the country who are now in the process of establishing their own posts.
The Explorer Program is also scalable. I’m coming from Los Angeles, California—with a huge population base. We have no problem getting people to apply. That’s the world I come from. But this career opportunity is also applicable to a small town that has only one high school. They may have three or four kids that are interested in being Explorers. That could be all you need to fill those three or four critical positions in the future.
We’re big on scaling this program and customizing it to whatever fits your need. It doesn’t have to be a big post. It doesn’t have to meet once a week. It can adapt to your specific needs. There’s a lot of small rural departments across the country that have been able to maintain their Explorers for a long time and reaped the benefits. So there is proof that it can be done on a smaller scale.
The real challenge is the who. Who’s going to run that meeting—whether it’s weekly, biweekly, or monthly—when we’re already taxed and overloaded and dealing with heavy targets as employees across the country? It’s this capacity part that’s the missing piece. Even with support at the national level from the federal agencies, it comes down to that person at the District level who’s going to say: “Yes, I will commit to running the meetings and here’s my team.”
And that’s been what’s made this program successful on the Angeles. We’ve always had the workforce and the leadership that has provided the opportunity and encouraged employees to take the lead and run an Explorer Post.
Kelly: That’s super cool. The whole scalability of it.
Oscar: We have helped establish posts outside of California a couple times and they’ve been successful. But as soon as a few of those key leaders move on, they haven’t been able to sustain the program behind them. So they’ve fallen apart. There’s got to be that continuity of a handoff and that support at the upper Forest or District level management to ensure that there’s a consistency to manage the program versus relying on one person to keep it together.
Kelly: Do you think there’s anything unique or specific about the Explorer Program that helps inspire people to make a career in wildland fire? For you, was there a turning point? Or is that something unique to the individual? Or, is there something about the program that really excites people into thinking: “Hey, yeah, I want to do this!”?
Oscar: It goes both ways. The program format either makes an Explorer realize that they love it, or, on the other hand, be like: “Hell no, I don’t want to do this. Thank you for exposing me to this. Now I know what I don’t want to do.” This response is equally as important to those who realize the program is right for them. It helps them get on a path that is right for them.
We run the academy pretty hard. It’s a professional academy where we show our participants what wildland firefighting is all about. On hour number three of cutting line we hear about some Explorers who want to quit. We try to remind them to hang on and keep going because if they can get through this they can get through anything. And, of course, it’s not just about cutting line. It’s teamwork, it’s perseverance, it’s pushing through the pain and getting through it as a team. We cross over to making it universal learning points.
In summary, to answer your question, some young men and women realize this is not for them rather quickly. And some are like: “Wow, this is badass. We get to cut line, we get to the fight fires, we get to fly in helicopters and go around the country and see and experience new things.” The program opens up a whole new world for a lot of these young men and women.
It really comes from the leadership of these posts who inspire the participants. We’re lucky to have employees that are eager to help these young people and share their experiences, demonstrating how fun it is to work for the federal agencies and in wildland firefighting. The young men and women pick up on these peoples’ attitudes—this positive influence that can become their spark for the rest of their career.
Then, again, as they come into positions and start their careers, they have an advanced awareness of what is involved in wildland firefighting programs across the country. They have an edge and ongoing mentorship. Just because they stopped being Explorers doesn’t mean these relationships have ended. We always follow up with them. One of the things that makes this program really successful is how many Explorers get hired and come back to help mentor the next generation of Explorers.
It feeds itself in that manner and that, in itself, inspires. It’s great when these young men and women who might be unsure, but then see somebody that’s two or three years older than them coming back to help them and tell them how fun it is, how much experience they’re gaining, how much money they can make. It fires them up to get hired.
Kelly: That’s super cool. It’s always interesting to hear people talk about when they first started, how you hear people say: “I was instantly hooked.”
Oscar: Yes, exactly.
Kelly: It’s common to hear how this generation is different than past generations. Seeing this cohort of young prospective firefighters year after year, do you have any observations about recruiting the next generation? How can we better entice people? How can we better recruit?
Oscar: Having been an Explorer so long ago and then always being connected to it from all the levels, including Program Manager, I’ve seen the evolution. Having seen hundreds, if not thousands, of young men and women come through over the years, they’re really all about the same. They all want something that’s important to them. They want something that’s fun, something that’s rewarding. Most are okay with working hard. That is what I’ve seen.
If I look at an Explorer now versus 15 years ago, it’s still the same kid. The same kid still trying to figure out who we are, what we have to offer them, and if we fit into their future. I think what’s different now is that they have access to so much technology. Quite often they’re asking us questions that surprise us because they’re searching online, doing their own research: “What’s the Dude Fire? What can you tell me about that? What’s the South Canyon Fire?”
They have so much access to information. In turn, we have to adapt to that. And we have definitely learned to reevaluate and rethink the traditional “old school” eight hours in classroom lecture-based training. That’s boring as an instructor. So you know that’s also boring and difficult for today’s student. We try to balance classroom time with 50/50 skills and lecture. In those lectures we can teach in the field—and we’re now more willing to do that. We’ve definitely had to modify our teaching styles to recruit.
In addition, we’re letting a lot of our younger firefighters co-teach so they can crossover and gain the experience of the more senior leadership down at the ground level.
When they see somebody who looks like them and talks like them, they’re more able to understand where they fit into the big picture. So we use that technique a lot. But as far as other big changes, I really haven’t seen that much. A lot of people might say that the members of today’s younger generation aren’t as hard of workers—that they’re not as “whatever” as they used to be. I don’t think that’s the case.
Again, I’ve got the perspective of seeing Explorer academies over the last 20-plus years. Every year, these kids surprise us on how awesome they are, how they’re all a product of their environment, and how they all have something to offer. If the instructors are fired-up and positive, they’ll be fired-up and positive. Therefore, I believe that it depends on who’s teaching them, what attitude these instructors have.
Kelly: What’s your vision of an ideal employment scenario for future federal fire workers? When you look at the Explorer Program, your job as a Division Chief, and your own experience, what do you think is an ideal scenario there?
Oscar: I’ve thought about that a lot. I think implementing a training and development path that’s organized and based on educational skills would be a great concept. For your first year, you are going to this academy. In two years, you go into this academy, in three years, you go into the next-level academy. The path would walk you along this entire development process as an employee. Because, as things are now, once you’re in the system, it’s random depending on your District, your chiefs, your Forest, the budgets and all that. There’s randomness in the current system.
We need a structured academy style or structured path of development in which it’s clearly outlined what skills, experience, and education—whatever it is, whatever that interval is—is determined and intentional. Because, right now, it’s random and you hear a lot of employees say: “I never get training,” depending on where they are in the country, “I never get this. I don’t get that. I’m falling behind.”
And then you get others who are just way advanced and way qualified and experienced. Right now, there’s a shotgun approach to employees figuring out what training they want or need and where to go to get it. An employee can go in this path for a bunch of years that doesn’t ultimately connect to the development to a Division Chief position, a Program Manager position, or whatever position they would like to aspire to.
Kelly: That makes good sense. Tell us your most rewarding Explorers Program experience. It can be from your own, as an Explorer yourself, or just as you’re mentoring people in the various phases through the process.
Oscar: While I can’t recall anything specific because there’s so many, I think what’s most rewarding to me and all the other men and women that continue to put energy and focus into the Explorer Program is to see Explorers promote across the wildland fire service to positions they’ve dreamed of being in—but didn’t think they were capable of getting into such high-level management positions.
And it’s not just in fire. Some Explorers have gone on to be rangers and such. After their Explorer’s experience, they went on to forestry school and realized this is a cool path: “Love the fire stuff. But, wow, this is an opportunity that I think attracts me even more than that.” To see them succeed and continue to advance themselves in wildand fire and the natural resource field, that is definitely the most rewarding thing that I can think of.
I think that’s what highlights why we still go out of our way to push, promote, and carry the challenge of hosting an Explorer Program. Because it is a workload in addition to the heavy workload that we all already have. And it’s not just me. This also applies to our Fire Chief and all of the other firefighters, Fire Captains, Battalion Chiefs, who make it work on a weekly basis and a monthly basis.
And now, with 30 years behind us, we’re looking at the next 30 years when we’re all retired. What does 30 years from now look like? What are we doing to prepare for the future now? We’re always talking about futuring out. Seeing the success stories of the previous and current Explorers is what keeps us going to future out 30 years from now.
Kelly: That’s awesome. You do cool stuff.
Oscar: We’re lucky to be able to host this program and that’s why every opportunity we have, we promote it. It’s the most successful recruitment program that I can think of. Right now, because it’s so challenging across the entire wildland fire service to recruit and retain firefighters, this program is more important than ever. It’s such a challenge to recruit and retain our wildland firefighting workforce. Our program represents a solution to that problem.
We keep recruiting Explorers and hiring them, so it’s proven to be a solution for 30 years to filling vacancies. That’s why we’re so adamant that this is also scalable anywhere else. If you find yourself at a Forest or a unit where morale may be low and recruitment is difficult, this program represents an opportunity to address this. When you bring new young men and women into the workforce, hire them and see them grow locally. That’s a proven solution.
Kelly: That’s awesome. I appreciate you doing this for us.
Oscar: I appreciate you and encourage others to start an Explorer Post or other programs that grow firefighters.
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center 
I am really pleased to see the explorer program(s) receive some positive attention and credit. Providing leadership to the post is a huge lift and a challenge and they deserve a lot of credit for molding future fire service leaders. I am super grateful to the Post leadership I had. From 1974 through 1978, I was a member of explorer post 911, based out of the Glendale Fire Department (CA) in SoCal where I taking fire service related classes. Did it make a difference in my career? HUGE. Since I was too young to join a seasonal crew I gained all my original exposure to the fire service through the explorer program. Ride-a-longs and training were awesome and kept me focused until I was hired on one of our crews (1975-1978) and then eventually full time by Kern County (1978-2008). Thanks for an article that provides a great diversion from some of the other important topics discussed here but also shows how the commitment of leaders like Oscar Vargas, Tony Garcia, and Kevin Burns (my post advisor) can make a huge difference in lives and careers.
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